Greetings Jean (Teletoutgos)
Von:teletourgos (***@yahoo.co.uk)Betrifft:Re: R+C Chronicles
of 1990/ S.E.T.I. View: Complete Thread (14 Beiträge)
Newsgroups:alt.amorcDatum:2005-04-11 02:37:47 PST
Post by Sid
Well you have mentioned 3 of the protagonists thus far so I would
assume that you have some knowledge on the subject, personal or
One must have one's own views, and one's own impressions, but not
wanting those to influence the history.
Would not every student upon the path have an influence upon the
history of groups within these types of landscape, be it either
directly or indirectly, objective or subjective, mundane or spiritual?
I would think so, because the true New World Order' is humanity.
There are many examples and reasons both positive and negative, in
this regard that can have an influence upon history AND the future
history of authentic systems or sreams of initiation that are serving
Light and not darkness.
For example one may wish to withdraw to the silence and walk alone
with ones light, so to speak. This would be a positive example, should
a student choose such a path.
A negative example would be when a person knows the truth and misuses
it for their own ends etc., as was done both before and after 1990.
This can be experienced by the student upon the path in a number of
ways, even simply by looking at a person who is using this kind of
tactic, or sending out this kind of information i.e., what we send
out' can be experienced by others, and in this case is called "The
A negative form of silence, if you will.
Post by Sid
Not sure (at the moment) how to respond to your comment regarding the
supporting of any group 'over' another. There are a great many
possibilities depending upon ones interest, involvement, past or
present, non-member of AMORC, past member of AMORC, member of both
AMORC and the CR+C together i.e., not every member/officer who
supported Gary was expelled from the Order, and I am sure that many
present members of AMORC know the importance of the Work that needs to
Yes, I agree. So wholesale attacks on any group are not the way . . .
Well, I am not interested in any kind of "wholesale attacks on any
group" or individual for that matter, but that said my bias' will
show through sometimes with regards to some of the people involved in
Never-the-less I still have a few questions regarding the activities
of some people and groups and especially with regards to a group
called "The Academy" in Germany, but more about that later.
Post by Sid
because in such a widespread group as AMORC one does find those truly
in touch with the tradition.
Post by Sid
Difficult, but that would depend upon if the members of his branch
would want to release information to the public or not. I am always
interested in any form of serious research on the subject of
Rosicrucianism. I am sure that HSL would have had to take a number of
serious and strickt oaths of silence, so I would imagine that the
information that we are talking about would be for Imperators and
above, only. Regarding the higher degrees and other information
written and oral, within AMORC I would expect that AMORC members would
also take their oaths seriously, and keep some things strictly
Given we are now many years since Lewis's death, I think it is safe to
talk about his initiators. One can imagine situations where it might
not be so, such as where to do would endanger the descendants of the
initiator. But that is not the case here.
One will have to leave that up to the people who have that
Post by Sid
Well don't quote me on this but I believe Spencer Lewis did write
something (old notes) about the subject of lies and the telling of the
truth, in either a monograph in the higher degrees or perhaps it was
in one of the CROMAAT Monographs, I don't remember.
I will look for that. These of course are online now.
They have been online for a long time. See CROMAAT monographs F and G.
Post by Sid
I don't know why someone would want to retreat after receiving either
new or better information. Anything that will spread light upon the
truth can only be to our advantage, don't you think?
I would think so too. The fact that this person is now silent is
surely testament to the sorry circumstance that he didn't want to know
facts, he wanted to harm reputations and organisations.
Well some reputations and organizations have been damaged by 1.) lack
of information, knowledge and understanding, 2.) gossip and rumour
etc., based upon 1.), and especially when people are bitter about the
way that they may have been treated in the past. 3.) Boasting based
upon arrogance reflected by/within advanced students upon the path,
regardless of their membership degree or group/Order that they may
belong to. 4.) Lack of tact when advanced members sometimes boast
about a pre-WWII AMORC member of the Order who left while in the 7th
degree. 5.) A very unfortunate anti-American stance amongst the
members/officers of the various Orders in Europe since the days of H.
Spencer Lewis that has continued till the present day vis á vis the
Well I spent
Post by Sid
nearly 20 years in the 'good old days' and was fortunate enough to
meet a number of the 'old guard' members of the Order, and I am sure
that there are still a few going strong today, in the Order. I
disagree with you on this point because some of the 'old guard' were
very forth comming with information in private based upon the rule to
only speak to prepared ears.
I have experienced this too, at various points. And have inherited
materials that do the same.
Post by teletourgos
or branch out to the more remote reaches of the movement
I am speaking of people who arrive in other orders after long time in
AMORC, and their particular views, which at the first, seem odd to
those raised in other traditions.
Different facets of the same jewel, perhaps?
I found AMORC exceptional with regards to its multitudinous aspects
for personal research and learning (home sanctum study etc.), and
especially and even more so with regards to the many different types
of people one can meet within the landscape of group work, and in
travelling to various Jurisdictions. This would also include the TMO
as well, in this regard.
Post by Sid Post by teletourgos
And how must one know that every GL of AMORC will remain associated
with Bernard ? My feeling is that this will not be so, and that others
in the R+C will find themselves blending with those who have jettisoned
that connection, in new incarnations.
I am all ears, please continue.
My feeling is that certain GLs will not stay. Only my feeling and I am
not going to point a finger and say, 'these will stay, these will go .
. .' To do so would push the weight onto certain individuals, whether
deserved or not. But I feel it will happen.
We shall see what the future brings. This will of course be up to them
but I feel that the process continues.
Post by Sid
What would you put in such a book, if you were to write one?
A history of the order before 1990. A synopsis of its teaching and the
changes over time. The issues of certain past schisms/disagreements,
their impact today. The events themselves. Views on these events.
The outcomes. The orders created out of the schism. Their
Post by Sid
and position on the teachings. How they sit within the R+C movement
today. A tentative conclusion labelled 'Speculation' in the largest
letters, suggesting what 'may' occur in the future.
Post by Sid
These at the briefest, would be some areas of a 'nuts-and-bolts'
history, not a mystical book by any means. It would not be the
Post by Sid
of such book to urge anyone to join AMORC, CR+C, ARC, OMCE. But some
might do so. And would they be better or worse members ? I don't
To be objective, such a book would also require that a number of
people would need to be contacted and properly interviewed which would
include all of the Grand Masters of the 1990 period, (perhaps) as well
as some of the past Grand Masters, e.g., as in the case with the
German Grand Lodge. If such a book were to help future generations to
understand so that past mistakes were/are not repeated, again and
again, then I would welcome it.
A person could also leave their own personal Confessio' for
posterity, that could also be published in such a book. Just brain
storming' the subject here. One could also write a chapter on the
behind the scenes skullduggery' that went on as well. Pun intended.
Post by Sid
I am sorry, I was being 'trite' with regards to my comment of Raab. I
admit. I do not think him to be an arch-villain. But neither a saint.
No problem. A difficult enough job anyway without being a saint,
meaning that I somehow doubt that a saint could do the job. The
general view was rather polarized either for or against him, and some
members did take it much too far (both for and against). I did my best
to take the middle path with many others.
Post by Sid
I think certainly that AMORC-Germany has had better leaders. And in
reference to doctrine or ritual, has been as closest to a true R+C
organization in the mundane as one can get.
Not sure of your meaning here. Are you referring to AMORC-Germany and
their use of doctrine and ritual, group work etc., or are you making
an indirect reference to one of the past Grand Masters? Well I did not
agree with some of the serious changes in ritual that I had to
implement in 1989, completely eliminating the 3 most important parts
of the ritual, and I certainly hope that that has now been corrected
by the present Grand Master (MN).
Post by Sid
And then opted to walk away from it all. I am not going to beat about
the bush there. But that is ancient history now.
Well, a number of past Grand Masters certainly did walk away from it
all, and to be honest I don't blame them for doing so. I would use the
words to "throw in the towel" because they had become fed up with the
continual beatings they were getting and all the intrigue etc., that
was going on behind their back, but that is just my take on the
Post by Sid
But that is ancient history now.
I don't think so, far from it because it is influencing the present,
don't you think, and perhaps the past, present and the future are
closer than one may think?
I experience your posts as somewhat veiled, but I have a feeling that
you are making an indirect reference to the past Grand Master ME
If I may, I would like to take a somewhat speculative and simple look
at some of the aspects of the Ordo Rosae Crucis from the time of
Spencer Lewis, till the present day, and perhaps you and other readers
may like to add their own comments, views and information to help
fill in' some of the dots, so to speak.
H. Spencer Lewis gets Initiated into the Ordo Rosae Crucis in Toulouse
in France in 1909.
His strict instructions were that he was to set up a Lodge system
based upon the ancient tradition of the Order of the oral instruction
of its members. In 1915 according to his instructions he installs the
first Lodge of his own Order called AMORC in Pittsburgh. Not sure if
there was a Lodge in New York before this time(?).
He discovers early on (before his trip to Europe) that there are a
number of other Rosicrucian groups both in the United States and
Europe that are in effect competition' to his own plans.
He is warned by his superiors that he must keep the Office of
Imperator, ritual and doctrine strictly separate from the mundane
structure and aspects of his chosen vehicle. He chooses to make a
compromise between the two, probably based upon American rules
regarding the corporate structure of organizations like this in
America, in that he chose 5 directors with himself as one of those
directors, and the Office of Imperator separate and above the mundane
requirements of Corporate law in the US. Unfortunately, this was
exactly the weak point in the Court case in 1990 in that AMORC in
their case claimed that the title of Imperator was simply that of
President' which they wished to have removed with the Director' who
was one and the same person. If my memory serves me well, it was a
simple requirement of American corporate law in California that all 5
directors (plus the 10 Grand Masters who had also become members of
the Board of Directors) needed to be sworn in every 5 years(?) correct
me if I am wrong here. By the way if you look at the document that was
signed by the Directors in April 13, 1990 you will notice that there
are 2 Grand Masters missing, so this could hardly be called a
unanimous decision' by ALL of the Board members i.e., 2 Grand Masters
were not in agreement with what was being done.
As explained in a previous post H. Spencer Lewis and his son Ralph
Lewis started to set up a private degree system of study for the home
sanctum member. No come complaints that the Order is selling its
teachings and Initiations etc. Well we (home sanctum members) all knew
that the real Initiations were done within a proper Lodge environment.
On August 2, 1939 H. Spencer Lewis passes through transition, and
Ralph Lewis becomes the new Imperator.
Now to get back to some' of the events leading up to the debacle in
After World War 2 AMORC had a rather difficult start in trying to get
off of the ground again in Germany in the late 1940's and early
1950's, in fact it is probably safe to say that the Order in Germany
has always been plagued by a great many difficulties and setbacks
through-out its history.
1950-1951 GM Fischer
1952-1953 GM ME
1954-1955 GM Orenstein
1955-1955 GM Schwarz
1956-1963 GM Mueller (German spelling without the German "Umlaut")
The new Consitution & Statutes of the Order in Uberlingen (Bodensee)
dated the 29 December 1958 = 3 April 1959 was signed by 13 people.
Grand Master W.F. Muller joined as a neophyt of the Order in the
Spring of 1949 and was installed as Grand Master by the Imperator in
1956-1963. He was held in high regard by the Imperator and was perhaps
one of the best loved Grand Masters of the whole period who was able
to achieve a great deal for the German speaking membership of the
Order in such a short period of time (8 years). After 15 years as a
member of AMORC he threw in the towel.
Frater Raab is I believe treasurer/secretary at this time (correct me
if I am wrong), and says at one of the Covocations "We want to give
our greatest effort, so that the ship that we are steering does not go
aground upon the sand". In a confidential letter (05. July 1990) to
all Officers of the subordinate bodies of the German Grand Lodge,
similar words were used, i.e., but now "the ship (AMORC) had sprung a
leak and was in grave danger of sinking", but that with the news that
Gary Stewart was now to become Imperator that the ship (AMORC) would
now sink. Sorry, Frater Raab, but you and others had already spoken
out against Imperator Ralph Lewis while he was still alive.
Frater Raab becomes Administrator in 1 April 1964.
Also on 1 April 1964 the new (German) Constitution and Statutes are
Ralph M. Lewis (President) known & called internally as Imperator
Erwin W.E. Watermeyer (first vice-chairman), known & called internally
as Grand Master
Werner R. Kron (second vice-chairman), known & called internally as
Treasurer. (Taken from: The new Consitution & Statutes of the Order in
Uberlingen (Bodensee) dated the 29 December 1958 = 3 April 1959 was
signed by 13 people.)
In London on the 04 September 1966 Frater Werner Kron is installed as
Grand Master for the German speaking countries by Arthur C.
Pipenbrink, supreme secretary of AMORC in San José, CA, USA. On the
very evening of his installation Frater Raab informs him that he had
always wanted the position of Grand Master, whereupon Frater Kron
answers him with the words, "You should have said so, and I would have
let you have it" (roughly translated). Frater Kron throws in the towel
after 7/9 years as Grand Master.
New Constitution & Statutes of the Order in German, signed in San
José, California, U.S.A., September 25, 1968 by Imperator Ralph M.
Lewis, Arthur C. Piepenbrink, and Erwin W.E. Watermeyer = Baden-Baden
03 April 1969.
The interesting sentence in the C&S of the Order is as I mentioned
before, that EACH individual member and ALL members of the Order
together were both individually and collectively in a position as
custodians and as trustees of the Order within each of their respected
Jurisdictions etc., and also of the Supreme Grand Lodge.
See: Statutes, Chapter/Article 9, General Order, section 151.
By this time Ralph Lewis suggests that the German Jurisdiction (again
without a Grand Master), should amalgamate and join with the French
Grand Lodge of the Order i.e., no Grand Master in Germany. Well a few
senior Officers within the German Jurisdiction were having nothing of
it, and objected, so Ralph Lewis then told them that the members
should choose a new Grand Master.
Frater Raab is installed as Grand Master on the 15th of September
Frater Raab so desperately wanted to be Grand Master by now that he
was finally given what he wanted. Much in the same way that people
knew that Christian Bernard so desperately wanted to become the new
Imperator, so was given what he wanted.
One of the first things that the new Grand Master (WR) did was to
dismantle the fixed Temple that was at the Headquarters of the German
Grand Lodge that was in Baden-Baden. Perhaps he did not like the
"Egyptian" style of it but either way I personally feel that this was
the psychological and spiritual break' of the link with the Supreme
Grand Lodge of the Order in America. This is also when many of the
senior members of the Order started to withdraw from the group work.
A bit of speculation here perhaps, regarding why some people here
(Germany) felt that they were not getting the proper support from the
Imperator as they had wanted and expected. It was simply because
information was not getting through to the Imperator and was being
blocked by a German member in the US called Frater Watermeyer who was
working at the Supreme Grand Lodge in San José CA, USA., and in one
example (1975?)I do know about a member who actually flew to the US to
hand over a report to the Imperator personally. He was told by the
secretary that Ralph Lewis was not at the Park, but the member in
question had actually seen him through his office door which was open.
The secretary knew that this member was from Germany. This did
contribute towards the good reputation of the Order in Germany amongst
some of the senior members.
Frater Watermeyer was the German representative in the USA at the
Supreme Grand Lodge of the Order. He was also an excellent instructor
at the University and had written a number of excellent articles. Met
him in London in 1982. Watermeyer I believe was also of the linage of
the Gustav Meyrink stream, which would probably bring to a link with
the Asiatic Brothers and the FUDOSI in Brussels, and possibly the
Knights of the Golden Rose who were also in Brussels.
The unfortunate and sad thing in this part of the story is that both
Watermeyer and Raab were using each other, (my personal opinion) and
each on top of everything else, had their own agendas. Watermeyer also
used material belonging to Paul Foster Case and BOTA and this material
was used within the Order for seminars in the higher degrees, and
lectures on the TAROT at Conventions, and all this without actually
telling the members the true source of the material being used. Well
later the books by Paul Foster Case were translated into German and
published so members will now know, much in the same way as the
complete 9 degrees of the Gold Rose Cross Order have since been
Transition of Erwin W.E. Watermeyer (date not known)
Now back to the "Academy". The "Academy" is a group of people who
organize their meetings at the same time as AMORC does, which would
require some inside help'. Their goal as I understand it is to
establish a long term friendship with members of the Order (i.e., we
just happen to bump into each other at the same place every year.), to
collect any and all information of value, and to take over key
positions within the Order. Here I believe that there are at least 2
groups involved, and both separately from one another. Now a high
degree Mason (side degrees) may say that they have already taken over
all the key positions, within the Order, but that would not
automatically make all Masons within the Order suspect, (far from it),
and I want to make this point ABSOLUTLY clear, because ALL of the
Masons whom I actually knew personally were all very honourable
gentlemen and beyond reproach of any kind. I do not look upon enemies
of the Grand Master as suitable material for any purpose, but the
"Academy" was interested' in members who had perhaps found themselves
in Raab's bad books' or perhaps they had gotten themselves into
trouble of some kind and were "on the way out", so to speak. Now this
type of activity IS subversive to say the least and is very
objectionable within a landscape such as ours.
I only have a few questions regarding the activities of this group,
which are: Were the activities of this group specifically a Masonic
"experiment", and were they officially sanctioned by regular' Masonry
or were they sanctioned by irregular' Masonry? Of course it is also
possible that this was just a small group of people with their own
agenda from a number of different groups, who were working together.
Perhaps someone reading this can enlighten us regarding this matter
and put the record straight.
The other point that I would like to bring to the fore is with regards
to the "new" FUDOSI and the question: Is the statement "We do not
recognise AMORC" actually true, or were they just the misguided words
of someone who was very bitter about the past, and the way he was
treated while he was an Officer in the Order?
Does anyone actually know the names of the groups belonging to the new
FUDOSI and may we know their names?
Transition of Ralph M. Lewis in January 1986
The other point that I would also like to bring up to the fore (please
correct me if I am wrong) is that the IRS in the United States was
going to bring out a new ruling that would take effect in 1991, that
would require that ALL organizations like AMORC who had their Head
Office in the US would also have to automatically open their books
with regards to all of their holdings in other countries to the
American IRS i.e., all Grand Masters in each Jurisdiction of the Order
would have to "open their books". May I humbly suggest that perhaps
some Grand Masters did NOT want this to happen? So, the transfer of
the Supreme Grand Lodge of the Order was carefully planned and the
headquarters of the Order were moved to French Quebec in Canada, and
the man who would be king was just waiting to be asked.
In the hope that some of the above will be of some value to you the
reader, so that the mistakes of the past are not repeated again and
The above has been written in memory of a good friend and Brother from
England who was a highly respected and much loved member of the Order
for more than 30 years of dedicated service, a member of the MCE and a
staunch defender of the person Gary Stewart and of his Office of
Norman was so upset by the relentless attacks against the Imperator
that he had a heart attack in 1990 that killed him.
To close: The events of 1990-1993(+) were cataclysmic to say the
least, and many members responded differently. Perhaps in another post
the spiritual' aspects of this whole process can be addressed and
discussed within a landscape of fraternal exchange through the use
this public' media.
I trust that I have not been too harsh upon you the reader.