Discussion:
Court Documents
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melapibus
2009-05-04 04:13:23 UTC
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Hello all,

I've been searching for a long time for all court documents concerning
the 1990 affair, and without success. I remember a website that once
offered them for download, but it no longer exists.

I would greatly appreciate if anyone has them, to send them to me.

My email is ***@gmail.com


I am a Rosicrucian student who is interested in the history of the
movement, both AMORC and CR+C, and I'd love to learn what truly
happened.


Thanks in advance,

F.S.
"" <x>
2009-05-04 15:16:20 UTC
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Melapibus
I think you are refering to a web site put up by the unjustly maligned
Cathari and her husband.
They went to the trouble of copying some of the documents at the courthouse
and putting up the website.
The problem is the docs won't give a thorough explanation of what happened.
Neither will most of the people involved; they all had secret agendas and
fed out information depending on how they wanted to manipulate opinion. Most
people simply don't understand what happened; this caused a big exodus from
AMORC.
It's hard to understand how Gary Stewart could be charged with embezzlement
when he did not take the money. This baffled me and nobody from amorc would
explain it.
However, if you study the questions I put to Gary Stewart on this newsgroup,
note the questions he DOES NOT answer, and his explanations of what
happened, you can get to the truth. It does require a rudimentary
understanding of business law, and an above average understanding of
confidence games and how they are run. AMORC was fully justified in removing
him.

If you can't track down Cathari and get the docs from her, I may have copies
of the docs. Right now I don't have time to search for them or post more.

Keranos Melanaigis
Post by melapibus
Hello all,
I've been searching for a long time for all court documents concerning
the 1990 affair, and without success. I remember a website that once
offered them for download, but it no longer exists.
I would greatly appreciate if anyone has them, to send them to me.
I am a Rosicrucian student who is interested in the history of the
movement, both AMORC and CR+C, and I'd love to learn what truly
happened.
Thanks in advance,
F.S.
gls
2009-05-04 22:30:49 UTC
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On May 4, 10:16 am, "***@teranews.com" <x> wrote:

<snip>
Post by "" <x>
The problem is the docs won't give a thorough explanation of what happened.
correct

<snip>
Post by "" <x>
However, if you study the questions I put to Gary Stewart on this newsgroup,
note the questions he DOES NOT answer, ...
and those would be?

Hey, why don't you discuss something far more interesting. I for one
am still curious as to why you think Rosicrucianism is connected to
the mysteries of Dionysus as you've been asserting. You've been
ignoring my questions put to you regarding that subject.
Post by "" <x>
Keranos Melanaigis
gls
"" <x>
2009-05-04 23:36:37 UTC
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Gary
If you were honest, you would admit you have no interest in my views about
the Eleusinia. You know that both of the Lewis's believed that the
Rosicrucians derived from Egypt and spread into the Greek Mysteries. Your
real objective is to discredit the Lewis's and AMORC as frauds by attacking
an idea they held as true. This is a game you've been playing for over
thirty years since you started "researching" the history of AMORC, as a
pretended student. You (like most of your followers) are looking for an
excuse to spread the venom inside of you, which is the result of your abject
failure to discover Rosicrucians. You would also like to start another
pissing match to distract everyone from investigating the reasons you were
thrown out as Imperator. We both know most people are not sophisticated
enough to see through your spin. You are afraid someone will reveal the
truth of it in a way you can't refute.
Keranos Melanaigis

----------------------------------------------


"gls" <***@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:42ed4d6d-d262-4d38-b04c-***@q2g2000vbr.googlegroups.com...
On May 4, 10:16 am, "***@teranews.com" <x> wrote:

<snip>
Post by "" <x>
The problem is the docs won't give a thorough explanation of what happened.
correct

<snip>
Post by "" <x>
However, if you study the questions I put to Gary Stewart on this newsgroup,
note the questions he DOES NOT answer, ...
and those would be?
------------------------------------------
I've asked them on this newsgroup several times after your invitation to ask
any question I like, and you play the same game; you ignore the pertinent
questions and incite your entourage into a verbal battle of insults. This
clouds the issue and distracts everyone from pursuing the truth. I'm not
taking the bait.

Keranos

----------------------------------------------
Hey, why don't you discuss something far more interesting. I for one
am still curious as to why you think Rosicrucianism is connected to
the mysteries of Dionysus as you've been asserting. You've been
ignoring my questions put to you regarding that subject.
Post by "" <x>
Keranos Melanaigis
gls
gls
2009-05-05 07:22:14 UTC
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Melanaigis;
Post by "" <x>
Gary
If you were honest, you would admit you have no interest in my views about
the Eleusinia.
First, you do realize there is a difference between Eleusinia and the
Eleusinian Mysteries don't you? It's like the difference between a
Rosicrucian party and Rosicrucianism. But try to stay focused, you're
acting like a shrew with ADD high on methamphetamines. If you read
what I wrote, I'm asking for you to explain why you think
Rosicrucianism is connected with the mysteries of Dionysus -- that's
*Dionysus* and not "Eleusinia". And I really do have an interest in
the topic but only because you have done such a remarkable job of
misunderstanding everything that I'm curious as to how you did that.
Was it sonething in the monographs that caused you to think as you do?
Or is it merely your own ego?

<snip>
Post by "" <x>
You would also like to start another
pissing match to distract everyone from investigating the reasons you were
thrown out as Imperator.
How would getting into a pissing match with you distract anyone from
investigating anything?
Post by "" <x>
We both know most people are not sophisticated
enough to see through your spin.
Well, there you have it. Do you really have that much disdain for
anyone that's not yourself? You'd best serve yourself by not
underestimating others.

<snip>
Post by "" <x>
Keranos Melanaigis
gls
"" <x>
2009-05-05 20:17:37 UTC
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Gary
For six months the newsgroup has been dormant; you've had all that time to
post anything that interests you about Dionysus, Eleusis the Mikra or the
greater mysteries. You've posted NOTHING.
Now, under the heading of Court Documents, you start in with your insults to
start a pissing match about something completely irrelevant to the topic.
You set up your Procrustean bed about definitions implying that anyone who
does not accept your definition of words is ....? whatever insult you care
to insert.

You simply proved my point about your motives for posting here. It is NOT to
share knowledge, but simply to attack and feed your own sense of
superiority.
You are a disgrace to the Imperator who trusted and nourished you; you have
betrayed your oaths and the trust placed in you.

Keranos Melanaigis
Seawolf
2009-05-06 02:35:57 UTC
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Post by "" <x>
For six months the newsgroup has been dormant; you've had all that time to
post anything that interests you about Dionysus, Eleusis the Mikra or the
greater mysteries. You've posted NOTHING.
Good idea.The thing is Mel, you got it backwards. GLS has told us what
he thinks about Dionysus. Look at several of his posts of about a year
ago. Your the one who hasn't said anything. I've seen this kind of
bantering before on the Wiccan ng. One side said Wiccans have been
around for as long as there's been history while others say they were
made up in the 1950's. Unfortunately, the ones who claim antiquity
only claim it and don't give proof. They don't even offer any
opinions, only their sayso. Your doing the same. How about moving away
from your mantra about how bad a person and Imperator GLS is and offer
us unsophisticated peons something more intresting?
Post by "" <x>
Keranos Melanaigis
Seawolf
Seawolf
2009-05-06 02:49:03 UTC
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Hi gls,
Post by gls
Was it sonething in the monographs that caused you to think as you do?
I just started out with those puppies not too long ago. What are you
saying here? Something in there that's going to mess with our heads?
Post by gls
gls
Seawolf
k***@T-Online.de
2009-05-09 22:34:00 UTC
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The Rosicrucian 'Chaos' continues:

http://rosaecrucius.blogspot.com/2007/06/dungeons-dragons-at-rosicrucian-park.html

Sid
Post by Seawolf
Hi gls,
Post by gls
Was it sonething in the monographs that caused you to think as you do?
I just started out with those puppies not too long ago. What are you
saying here? Something in there that's going to mess with our heads?
Post by gls
gls
Seawolf
k***@T-Online.de
2009-05-09 23:24:13 UTC
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http://rosaecrucius.blogspot.com/2007/06/dungeons-dragons-at-rosicruc...
Sid
http://rosaecrucius.blogspot.com/feeds/posts/default


http://rosaecrucius.blogspot.com/2007/10/die-geschichte-vom-osterhasen.html
Ben Scaro
2009-05-11 10:22:22 UTC
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http://rosaecrucius.blogspot.com/2007/06/dungeons-dragons-at-rosicruc...
Sid
Oh,this is Andre Klynstra, aka Pater Cathare and a few other names.
Another of Joe Steve Swicks 'whackaloons', though not on alt.amorc.

His most infamous boast was of having told lies to a researcher about
members of the Dutch royal family being .
Lectorium Rosicrucianum initiates. Text below.

Mr Klynstra's stunning 'own goal' in what he apparently thinks is his
fight against 'rumours and hearsay on the Internet' has ensured that
no one interested in these areas will ever take him seriously again.

Ben


"taujean888 <***@...>" <***@...> wrote: Dear Mr.
Cathere,
I am sure we all appreciate your candor in admitting that you have
perpetuated misinformation regarding the R+C and the history of the
esoteric organizations in which we all have an interest. You have
saved us all an enormous amount of trouble by letting us know that
you are part of the problem.

Speaking for myself, I would appreciate it if you unplugged your
computer right now and threw it out of a high window. Follow it with
any word processors, pens, pencils, markers or crayons in your
possession. Finally, please, if you wouldn't mind, refrain from
talking about history with anybody at all. Just don't do it. The
picture is cloudy enough as it is with malefactors like you stirring
up more muck.

I am sure you think you are clever, and have done us all a favor
by showing us how easily led we all are. In fact, most of us prefer
to believe that what people tell us is the truth as far as they know
it, and that the peole we talk to are honest, as best they can be. It
is a rare treat for someone like yourself to come forward and say
with such openess "hey everybody, I'm a LIAR!". But you haven't done
anybody any favors, and have only assured that no one who has read
your post will ever take you seriously again.
Dear All!
In my fight against rumours and hearsay on the internet I stated
that I created some crackpot theories to demonstrate how easily
people are fooled and how things start leading a life of their own
and next are accepted as the truth!
Brother Alvin "Melchior" ****profile is linked to the Alchemy
manifestations of the Neo-Rosicrucian current.
The section on the Lectorium Rosicrucianum is almost entirely
written by undersigned. I still have the correspondence with the LR
since I did of course some research on the years and numbers.
It is rumoured that members of the Dutch royal family are initiates
of the Lectorium.
Well it wasn't rumoured in those days, not now nor will it be any
day soon! Cause I fabricated this, but no one ever questioned it even
once! This fragment is copied a lot and even still circulates in the
initial version where I made a spelling mistake calling is
Rozekruisers Genoodschap with D which isn't of course correct Dutch.
Ben Scaro
2009-05-11 10:25:48 UTC
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Raw Message
http://rosaecrucius.blogspot.com/2007/06/dungeons-dragons-at-rosicruc...
Sid
Oh,this is Andre Klynstra, aka Pater Cathare and a few other names.
Another of Joe Steve Swicks 'whackaloons', though not on alt.amorc.

His most infamous boast was of having told lies to a researcher about
members of the Dutch royal family being Lectorium Rosicrucianum
initiates. Text below.


Mr Klynstra's stunning 'own goal' in what he apparently thinks is his
fight against 'rumours and hearsay on the Internet' has ensured that
no one interested in these areas will ever take him seriously again.

Ben



"taujean888 <***@...>" <***@...> wrote: Dear Mr.


Cathere,
I am sure we all appreciate your candor in admitting that you have
perpetuated misinformation regarding the R+C and the history of the
esoteric organizations in which we all have an interest. You have
saved us all an enormous amount of trouble by letting us know that
you are part of the problem.

Speaking for myself, I would appreciate it if you unplugged your
computer right now and threw it out of a high window. Follow it with
any word processors, pens, pencils, markers or crayons in your
possession. Finally, please, if you wouldn't mind, refrain from
talking about history with anybody at all. Just don't do it. The
picture is cloudy enough as it is with malefactors like you stirring
up more muck.


I am sure you think you are clever, and have done us all a favor
by showing us how easily led we all are. In fact, most of us prefer
to believe that what people tell us is the truth as far as they know
it, and that the peole we talk to are honest, as best they can be. It
is a rare treat for someone like yourself to come forward and say
with such openess "hey everybody, I'm a LIAR!". But you haven't done
anybody any favors, and have only assured that no one who has read
your post will ever take you seriously again.
Dear All!
In my fight against rumours and hearsay on the internet I stated
that I created some crackpot theories to demonstrate how easily
people are fooled and how things start leading a life of their own
and next are accepted as the truth!
Brother Alvin "Melchior" ****profile is linked to the Alchemy
manifestations of the Neo-Rosicrucian current.
The section on the Lectorium Rosicrucianum is almost entirely
written by undersigned. I still have the correspondence with the LR
since I did of course some research on the years and numbers.
It is rumoured that members of the Dutch royal family are initiates
of the Lectorium.
Well it wasn't rumoured in those days, not now nor will it be any
day soon! Cause I fabricated this, but no one ever questioned it even
once! This fragment is copied a lot and even still circulates in the
initial version where I made a spelling mistake calling is
Rozekruisers Genoodschap with D which isn't of course correct Dutch.
gls
2009-05-12 03:13:15 UTC
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Hi Ben;

I've not heard of Andre Klynstra (or his alias Pater Cathare) before,
but it sounds like he fancies himself as a 21st century Leo Taxil.

gls
http://rosaecrucius.blogspot.com/2007/06/dungeons-dragons-at-rosicruc...
Sid
Oh,this is Andre Klynstra, aka Pater Cathare ...
<snip>
Ben Scaro
2009-05-12 12:39:02 UTC
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Post by gls
Hi Ben;
I've not heard of Andre Klynstra (or his alias Pater Cathare) before,
but it sounds like he fancies himself as a 21st century Leo Taxil.
gls
Andre has had a number of aliases but his postings are always
identifiable. You don't need an IP address to ID him. He's the
original Walking Exclamation Mark.

He generally posts on his gossip blog now as his oeuvre, eg 'Picasso
was a Martinist!' 'AMORC is more than 3500 years old! Much older!';
etc garner him little credence on any forum where folk like a fact or
two. If you read other blog entries on there, you'll see he's a *big*
fan of me too. Lucky ol' Ben.

He has a major beef with Martin Erler's ORA. I get the sense he maybe
tried to join them once, but the admiration turned out not to be
mutual.

Leo Taxil? Possibly, but I'd guess more of a Leo Zagami.

Ben
gls
2009-05-16 04:21:38 UTC
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Hi Ben;

Well ... because of slow connection speed at my end, I seldom check
out links. I did with his (Andre) and he lost me when he said Ralph
Lewis died in February, 1987. You would think he would've known the
date if he wanted to present himself as being credible. I also see he
like me a lot. It would be a lot better for everyone involved if our
critics were a bit more interested in representing facts over rumors.
I don't have much time to waste, but I will mention that I don't have
an MBA. I have a BA in philosophy earned at an ag university in Fresno
California.

I also looked up Leo Zagami as I never heard of him before either ...
what a waste. You would think that type of posturing would have stayed
behind in the 20th c.

gls
Post by Ben Scaro
Andre has had a number of aliases but his postings are always
identifiable. You don't need an IP address to ID him.  He's the
original Walking Exclamation Mark.
He generally posts on his gossip blog now as his oeuvre, eg 'Picasso
was a Martinist!'  'AMORC is more than 3500 years old! Much older!';
etc  garner him little credence on any forum where folk like a fact or
two.  If you read other blog entries on there, you'll see he's a *big*
fan of me too. Lucky ol' Ben.
He has a major beef with Martin Erler's ORA. I get the sense he maybe
tried to join them once, but the admiration turned out not to be
mutual.
Leo Taxil?  Possibly, but I'd guess more of a Leo Zagami.
Ben
Seawolf
2009-05-11 19:08:12 UTC
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Sid,

I don't get it. How does your linking to a gossip blog answer my
question?

Seawolf
Post by k***@T-Online.de
http://rosaecrucius.blogspot.com/2007/06/dungeons-dragons-at-rosicrucian-park.html
Sid
Post by Seawolf
Hi gls,
Post by gls
Was it sonething in the monographs that caused you to think as you do?
I just started out with those puppies not too long ago. What are you
saying here? Something in there that's going to mess with our heads?
Post by gls
gls
Seawolf
gls
2009-05-11 15:07:33 UTC
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Hi;

On May 5, 9:49 pm, ***@blkpny.com (Seawolf) wrote:

<snip>
Post by Seawolf
Post by gls
Was it sonething in the monographs that caused you to think as you do?
I just started out with those puppies not too long ago. What are you
saying here? Something in there that's going to mess with our heads?
No. My reference was to the workings of a fringe element that revolved
around amorc back in the 70's. At the time the New Age became popular,
amorc saw a huge surge in membership. Although the surge was fleeting
as many people dropped out when they found they had to put a bit of
work into study, some people saw amorc as a means to promote their own
sense of self worth and interpreted the monographs to conform to their
own notions. As they built up their image in accordance of what they
*wanted* to believe from the monographs, any question of that image by
another was met with a lot of disdain and such questions were diverted
so as to be viewed as an attack on amorc, the teachings, the officers,
etc. rather than a question upon the individual's interpretation or
understanding. The whole concept of being a walking question mark was
changed by a few from everything as hsl intended to only those things
that didn't question the fringe element's opinions or how they wanted
to see themselves.

With that said, in the 60's and 70's some elements of pop psychology
began to find their way into the monographs as "editing corrections"
and some of those subjects were often [mis]eading, but all in all,
there's nothing in the monographs that's going to "mess with your
head" so long as you're solid and well balanced with your outlook.
Challenging, yes; but messing, no.

best

gls
Seawolf
2009-05-11 19:30:26 UTC
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Hi gls,
Post by gls
No. My reference was to the workings of a fringe element that revolved
around amorc back in the 70's. At the time the New Age became popular,
Maybe it still is? It seems it is mostly the fringies who get riled up
when someone wants to have a serious discussion about something and
they don't like the direction it takes. It's that way here, on the
wiccan ng's, and on some other similar topic groups I've been reading.
Post by gls
gls
Seawolf
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