Discussion:
CR+C Symbols and AMORC in Brazil
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h***@yahoo.com.br
2009-04-02 14:05:11 UTC
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Hello all and Mr. GLS.

I've received a message saying that the Grand Lodge of Brazil is
registering a CR+C symbol. What does this act implies?

I asked a friend (AMORC member in Brazil) and he showed me an AMORC
informative brochure with a new symbol. I initially doubt that, but I
accessed AMORC's Brazil site (www.amorc.org.br) and I really saw a
symbol similar to CR+C Symbol (actually, almost identical, except for
the blue color of the R and C).

So, what the hell is going on? Aren't that symbols "traditional" and
"ancient" or, at least, "old"? What's the point in changing 100 years
old symbols? Are they recognizing the CR+C lineage? Or AMORC is just
trying to mess with CR+C in this 19 year old neverending discussion?

Thanks in advance for any information.

Hadden
gls
2009-04-18 16:48:20 UTC
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Hi Hadden;
Post by h***@yahoo.com.br
Hello all and Mr. GLS.
I've received a message saying that the Grand Lodge of Brazil is
registering a CR+C symbol. What does this act implies?
Yes, they're registering one of our marks. Some people will say that
imitation is the highest form of flattery, while others will call it
theft. Regardless of which position one takes, in my opinion, it is
indicative of a pathetic lack of integrity to take someone else's work
and attempt to call it their own.

There are a number of different symbols that have been used by
Rosicrucians over the past several centuries and most, if not all, of
those symbols can be found in use by all Rosicrucian groups existing
today. And, that's the way it should be as there are a number of
really good Rosicrucian organizations in existence and they each need
an original symbol to mark their unique existence. However, what
separates each group from the other is not in the particular symbol(s)
used, but in their unique arrangement. As an example, almost all
Rosicrucian groups use a Rose Cross symbol as their primary
identifying mark. However, how it is arranged with other designs gives
it an unique quality that separates its use from other Rosicrucians.
AMORC has as one of its identifying marks an elongated cross with an
unfolding rose in the center. Behind the rose and cross there is a
circle connecting all the arms of the cross. On either side of the
elongated portion of the cross are triangles with a cross (no rose) in
the center. On the left side the triangle is pointing down and on the
right side, the triangle is pointing up. There are also two
cartouches; a six pointed star separating the word "cromaat"; and the
name "The Ancient and Mystical Order Rosae Crucis." Another of their
symbols is the elongated cross and unfolding rose inserted in a
triangle with a loop on the top to give the appearance of being a Crux
Ansata. There are others that amorc use and when one looks at their
uniquely designed symbols. one can see precisely that amorc is being
represented by the symbol. The CR+C also has uniquely designed symbols
and our prominent one is an *equal* armed cross with a five petaled
rose in the center. We also have a word mark CRC with that cross
between the R and C; and, of course our name: "Confraternity of the
Rose Cross." Amorc in Brazil is registering the CR [our cross] C and
our name. Our marks in association with our name were designed by
myself in 1996 when we started using them. Amorc has never used those
symbols until this year.

Why they're doing this, I don't know. It's probably best to ask them.
But it's interesting that a number of esoteric orders over the years
seem to beg, borrow, and steal from other esoteric orders and then
turn around and claim that what *they're* doing is original and
authentic while the other isn't. It seems to me that these guys could
focus their energies in someting more creative and constructive.

And "what does this act implies?" -- I think it says a lot about the
integrity of amorc in Brazil insofar as the people who came up with
that brainstorm is concerned. It confuses people if they're not paying
attention; it causes doubts amongst others; it causes some to wonder
why I'm being copied; and it does offer the CR+C some free advertising
although I don't think that is what they're intending. Considering we
don't do any advertising outside of our website, the few people who
might come our way as a result of the confusion are, naturally,
welcome. But insofar as their act implies in relation to the CR+C and
what we do, it does nothing. We figure the work Rosicrucians should be
doing regardless of the organization they belong to or if they remain
independant from any organization is far too important than to waste
time with these types of games.
Post by h***@yahoo.com.br
I asked a friend (AMORC member in Brazil) and he showed me an AMORC
informative brochure with a new symbol.  I initially doubt that, but I
accessed AMORC's Brazil site (www.amorc.org.br) and I really saw a
symbol similar to CR+C Symbol (actually, almost identical, except for
the blue color of the R and C).
So, what the hell is going on? Aren't that symbols "traditional" and
"ancient" or, at least, "old"? What's the point in changing 100 years
old symbols? Are they recognizing the CR+C lineage? Or AMORC is just
trying to mess with CR+C in this 19 year old neverending discussion?
If I were to guess, I would say they're just trying to mess with us.
They probably see us as competition as there is a relatively minor
attrition rate from amorc to cr+c. There will probably be a bit more
as a result. As to them recognizing the CR+C lineage, it kind of looks
that way, but I think they're more interested in wanting to claim it
as their own. And the point of changing their own symbols? I
personally don't see anything wrong with the ones they've had since
their inception in 1915. If it were me, I wouldn't change them. To my
way of thinking, doing so demonstrates a lack of confidence in what
they have -- and that would be especially confounded if they were to
replace the old ones with new ones.
Post by h***@yahoo.com.br
Thanks in advance for any information.
Hadden
best

gls
mjs129a
2009-04-20 03:10:50 UTC
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What does it mean to "Register" a symbol. Is it like copyrighting
it? If so, will Confraternity of the Rose Cross be prevented from
using the CR+C symbol in the future?

mjs
gls
2009-05-04 22:07:14 UTC
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Hi;
What does it mean to "Register" a symbol.  Is it like copyrighting
it?  If so, will Confraternity of the Rose Cross be prevented from
using the CR+C symbol in the future?
mjs
Yes, it's like copyrighting it.

No, we won't be prevented from using it. I've copyrighted it and have
been using it contiuously since I created it in 1996 and plan to
continue doing so. Unless the laws changed in Brazil recently, Brazil
(and a couple of other countries) seem to have their own standard on
international copyright and trademarks. They don't have to abide by
them unless they're also registered in Brazil as well. I'm not sure
why amorc brazil is doing what they are doing and what they hope to
achieve if they are successful. But them trying to get me to stop
using my own copyrights would be a bit farfetched even for them.

best

gls
mjs129a
2009-05-15 02:26:35 UTC
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Post by gls
Hi;
What does it mean to "Register" a symbol.  Is it like copyrighting
it?  If so, will Confraternity of the Rose Cross be prevented from
using the CR+C symbol in the future?
mjs
Yes, it's like copyrighting it.
No, we won't be prevented from using it. I've copyrighted it and have
been using it contiuously since I created it in 1996 and plan to
continue doing so. Unless the laws changed in Brazil recently, Brazil
(and a couple of other countries) seem to have their own standard on
international copyright and trademarks. They don't have to abide by
them unless they're also registered in Brazil as well. I'm not sure
why amorc brazil is doing what they are doing and what they hope to
achieve if they are successful. But them trying to get me to stop
using my own copyrights would be a bit farfetched even for them.
best
gls
Glad to hear it. Thanks.
mjs

Ben Scaro
2009-04-30 12:14:30 UTC
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Post by gls
If I were to guess, I would say they're just trying to mess with us.
They probably see us as competition as there is a relatively minor
attrition rate from amorc to cr+c. There will probably be a bit more
as a result. As to them recognizing the CR+C lineage, it kind of looks
that way, but I think they're more interested in wanting to claim it
as their own. And the point of changing their own symbols? I
personally don't see anything wrong with the ones they've had since
their inception in 1915. If it were me, I wouldn't change them. To my
way of thinking, doing so demonstrates a lack of confidence in what
they have -- and that would be especially confounded if they were to
replace the old ones with new ones.
Post by h***@yahoo.com.br
Thanks in advance for any information.
Hadden
best
gls
That's an interesting comment on them lacking confidence. I don't
think this is the first time AMORC lacking confidence in its own stuff
has occurred in their history. And well, we've been into the
pilfering of bits and pieces from other groups before.

But . . . pilfering from a group that maintains a lineage that AMORC
deviated from is in one way very damaging for them.

History may well see it as an implicit acknowledgment that it was them
who went off the 'straight and narrow' back in 1990.

Now, I don't think that's the story of the coup, it's way too
simplistic, but it does rather set up an argument that could be run
that way, to AMORC's detriment.

If I were them, I would give the folk who did this the bum's rush, and
fast.

Ben
gls
2009-05-04 22:19:10 UTC
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Hi Ben;

On Apr 30, 7:14 am, Ben Scaro <***@hotmail.com> wrote:

<snip>
Post by Ben Scaro
But . . . pilfering from a group that maintains a lineage that AMORC
deviated from is in one way very damaging for them.
that was my thought. The guys in Brazil don't seem to be thinking very
far ahead.
Post by Ben Scaro
History may well see it as an implicit acknowledgment that it was them
who went off the 'straight and narrow' back in 1990.
In my opinion, they've made a number of blunders over the course of
the past few years that would lead people to that conclusion. This is
just one more in the bucket. So either they're trying to fix those
mistakes, or they're blundering ahead with business as usual. I tend
to think it is the latter -- if anyone wants my opinion.
Post by Ben Scaro
Now, I don't think that's the story of the coup, it's way too
simplistic, but it does rather set up an argument that could be run
that way, to AMORC's detriment.
If I were them, I would give the folk who did this the bum's rush, and
fast.
Normally, for international corporations, it requires board approval
when it comes to registering trademarks. It was that way in my day
with amorc. So I guess it would be the board that would have to get
the bum's rush? But if this was a rogue event, then they have other
problems within that would be more serious then just the trademark
issue ...
Post by Ben Scaro
Ben
best

gary
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