Discussion:
more on numbers
(too old to reply)
Sid
2008-04-09 22:39:29 UTC
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Greetings,

Not quite sure where to start:

Looking at all these calculations etc., after all these years, I have
come to the conclusion that we need someone who knows how to use a
scientific calculator and possibly a ships compass and
cronograph(Spl.???) ships clock for navigation. Someone who has a good
knowledge of maths, arithmatic, and fractions etc.

Studion mentions his use of a 'virgin green branch of measure', and
coincidently I found that the source of the word 'fraction' is from
the Latin word 'frango' meaning 'break' which translated into the
German word 'Bruch' meaning fraction. I also found the German name for
the crack willow, which is 'bruch weide' or 'Sal'weide (F saule). The
latin name for this tree is 'Salix fragilis'. The latin word fragilis
also means fragile and frail.

As mentioned in another post:

Looking through the Fama you will find the following 3 books
mentioned: Liber 'M', Liber 'T', and Liber 'H'. Book 'M' is generally
believed to be the book of nature, but some have even suggested it to
be the book Miomenedes (Spl.?). The book 'T' is believed to be the
book Theologia or the Holy Bible, and the book 'H' is believed to be
the book of Hermes Trismegistos (Spl.?).

In our present alphabet the letter 'H' is the 8th letter, then the 5th
letter on is the letter 'M', then the 7th letter after this is the
letter 'T'. Interestingly, these are also important numbers in the
measurements of the vault of CRC in the Fama Fraternitatis, i.e., the
cave has 7 sides, each with a width of 5 shoes, and a hight of 8
shoes.

Another meaning of the letters M.T.H.:

In 1119 Balduin II, King of Jerusalem gave the knights a number of
buildings that were near the area of what used to be the temple of
Solomon, and from then on the knights were known as the 'Order of the
Knights of the Temple of Jerusalem' or "Militia Templi
Hiersolymitani" (M.T.H.), and in the Fama 3 books are mentioned called
Liber M, T and H. Like the 'Militia', the book 'M' also had 2 parts,
i.e., soldiers and priests. Like their banner, a light of the night
(moon) 'black' (the Arabic 'day' starts when the sun sets and the moon
rises), and the light of the day (sun) white. In the 'Rota' picture of
Fiore the sun is above and behind the moon. Both are in the East(?).
Both are the virticle 'axis' (= Alpha & Omega) of the circle/temple,
and this is the same with the symbol of the 'Monas' (Dee) in the first
day of the wedding.

Hiero/solyma = Hiero = picture in stone. Hieros = Holy, sacred, see
and the word solyma = reclaimed.(?)

Hierichuntis = Jericho. The hereldic animal of Jericho was the lion.

The year 1119 1+1+1+9 = 12 = 11 + 19 = 30 x 12 = 360. 1119 = L (11) &
T(19).

It has been stated that the first 4 brothers mentioned in the Fama
were each of the number 26 which x 4 = 104 which is also the numerical
value of the word 'VITRIOL' when the old latin alphabet is used in
sequence. The second group of brothers each represented the
triangulation of the number 26 which is 351 which x 4 = 1404 which is
the year that the Order R+C was founded.

Going back to the 3rd Day of the Chymical Wedding of Christian
Rosenkreuz:

Up to date I have not found any reference in English regarding the
name of the virgin with the original spelling of ALCHINIA and no
mention of the monumental work of R. Kienast. Mr. Kienast, himself,
did write that it was no great matter between the name ALCHINIA and
ALCHIMIA. But why would one not want to write the letter 'N' in the
name? Was it perhaps because they did not know the book 'N' or the
Naometria of Simon Studion? This is perhaps speculation on my part,
but allow me to continue.

The word 'Naometria' basicly means "Temple Measurement", so which
temple are we looking at? The temple of Man, Nature, God, or the
temple of Solomon, or perhaps the temple of the Knights Templar of the
'Order of the Knights of the Temple of Jerusalem' or "Militia Templi
Hiersolymitani" (M.T.H.)?

Adding the book 'N' with its numberical value of 13, to the M.T.H.
will give you the following:

M. = 12
T. = 19
H. = 08
N. = 13
-------
= 52

The triangulation of the number 52 is *1378 which is the year of the
birth of Christian Rosenkreuz. The numerical value of the name
Naometria is 91 which is also the triangulation of the number 13. 13 x
12 = 156 which is also the total of all reduced numbers from 1-36. The
triangulation of the number 36 = 666 which is also the number of the
beast(s) i.e., Homo, Bull, Eagle and the Lion. 4 x 36 = 144.

Thinking about the wedding etc., I continued as follows:

1. 52°°°= 1378
2. 53°°°= 1431
3. 54°°°= 1485 (54 x 26 = 1404 - 1485 = 81 = age of CR at the wedding
Anno 1459)
4. 55°°°= 1540 (55 = 5 + 5 = 10 / 1 + 2 + 3 + 4 = 10 / 10°°°= 55)
5. 56°°°= 1596
6. 57°°°= 1653
7. 58°°°= 1711 (58 = 5 + 8 = 13 and each wall of the vault of RC = 5
wide & 8 high

55°°°= 1540 minus Anno 1459 (year of the wedding) = 81
1540 minus 1378 = 162 = 6 x 27, 3 x 52 = 162

1404 divided by 27 = 52. the number 27 is also another number of
importance.

By the way, the uncompleted part of the chapel at Rosslyn is 91 feet
in length.

More later

Regards,
Sid
P.S. see you in the globe :)
f***@yahoo.co.uk
2008-04-10 03:05:41 UTC
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Sid,

This is all very interesting and impressing. I dont have anything to
add, save an open question on the Libers:

Assuming it refers to latin originals and not greek, what if it is
Liber Mundi (book of Earth/Nature), Liber Homo (book of Man/kind) and
Liber Tempus (book of time)?

There are many excellent suggestions that would fit for T though
(tetraktus, theologia, terra, testamentum, testimonium).

Sincerely,
Al et al ;)
Sid
2008-04-10 12:44:00 UTC
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Post by f***@yahoo.co.uk
Sid,
This is all very interesting and impressing. I dont have anything to
Assuming it refers to latin originals and not greek, what if it is
Liber Mundi (book of Earth/Nature), Liber Homo (book of Man/kind) and
Liber Tempus (book of time)?
There are many excellent suggestions that would fit for T though
(tetraktus, theologia, terra, testamentum, testimonium).
Sincerely,
Al et al ;)
Well there were a couple of mistakes in the above texts 1260/2160

Personally I like the idea of the Liber M,T,H, being one book with 3
parts.

The name "Militia Templi Hiersolymitani" :

420 = Age of the Father = Old Testament = 'Clock of God' = Time =
Macrocosmic = Compass
840 = Age of the Son = New Testament = Temple = Holy City =
Microcosmic
1260 = Age of the Holy Ghost = Naometria = Bible of the RC = Life
---------
2520 divided by 7 = 360/360°

Perhaps it is a bit like the symbol of the VSL in Masonry?

Best I can do for now.

Regards,
Sid
PS Militia Templi Hiersolymitani? Hm, another new Order?
Sid
2008-04-10 12:55:55 UTC
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Post by Sid
PS Militia Templi Hiersolymitani? Hm, another new Order?
Rats, someone just beat me to it :)

http://www.omth.de/

http://www.medal-medaille.com/product_info.php?cPath=36&products_id=1852&osCsid=8fc4e2928487404fac4129125ddf8a48

Interestingly the same cross can be seen twice on the Rosicrucian
documents (AMORC):

http://www.rosecroixjournal.org/resources/documents/rosicrucian_documents/index.html
f***@yahoo.co.uk
2008-04-10 19:39:44 UTC
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Hehe. Of course. Anything one can use ;)

But I've been looking for the reference to book T in fama. I cant find
it. Could you remind me?

Thanks,
Al
Post by Sid
Post by Sid
PS Militia Templi Hiersolymitani? Hm, another new Order?
Rats, someone just beat me to it :)
http://www.omth.de/
http://www.medal-medaille.com/product_info.php?cPath=36&products_id=1...
Interestingly the same cross can be seen twice on the Rosicrucian
http://www.rosecroixjournal.org/resources/documents/rosicrucian_docum...
Sid
2008-04-11 08:49:08 UTC
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Post by f***@yahoo.co.uk
Hehe. Of course. Anything one can use ;)
But I've been looking for the reference to book T in fama. I cant find
it. Could you remind me?
Thanks,
Al
Hi Al, et al

Here is the English text from the CR+C website:

"Now, as we had not yet seen the dead body of our careful and wise
Father, we therefore removed the altar aside; there we lifted up a
strong plate of brass, and found a fair and worthy body, whole and
unconsumed, as the same is here lively counterfeited, with all his
ornaments and attires. In his hand he held a parchment, called T., the
which next unto the Bible is our greatest treasure, which ought to be
delivered to the censure of the world. At the end of this book
standeth this following Elogium:" (below)

"...Round about the first circle or brim stood,

Jesus mihi omnia [2]

In the middle were four figures, inclosed in circles, whose
circumscription was,

1. Nequaquam Vacuum [3]
2. Legis Jugum [4]
3. Libertas Evangelii [5]
4. Dei Gloria Intacta [6]

This is all clear and bright, as also the seventh side and the two
heptagons. So we kneeled down together, and gave thanks to the sole
wise, sole mighty and sole eternal God, who hath taught us more than
all men's wits could have found out, praised be His holy name. This
vault we parted in three parts, the upper part or sieling, the wall or
side, the ground or floor. Of the upper part you shall understand no
more at this time, but that it was divided according to the seven
sides in the triangle, which was in the bright center; but what
therein is contained you (that are desirous of our society) shall, God
willing, behold the same with your own eyes. Every side or wall is
parted into ten squares, every one with their several figures and
sentences, as they are truly shown and set forth concentratum here in
our book. The bottom again is parted in the triangle, but because
therein is described the power and the rule of the Inferior Governors,
we leave to manifest the same, for fear of the abuse by the evil and
ungodly world. But those that are provided and stored with the
Heavenly Antidote, do without fear or hurt, tread on and bruise the
head of the old and evil serpent, which this our age is well fitted
for. Every side or wall had a door or chest, wherein there lay divers
things, especially all our books, which otherwise we had, besides the
Vocabulario of Theophrastus Paracelsus of Hohenheim, and these which
daily unfalsifieth we do participate. Herein also we found his
Itinerarium and Vita, whence this relation for the most part is taken.
In another chest were looking-glasses of divers virtues, as also in
another place were little bells, burning lamps, and chiefly wonderful
artificial songs--generally all was done to that end, that if it
should happen, after many hundred years the Fraternity should come to
nothing, they might by this only vault be restored again.

Now, as we had not yet seen the dead body of our careful and wise
Father, we therefore removed the altar aside; there we lifted up a
strong plate of brass, and found a fair and worthy body, whole and
unconsumed, as the same is here lively counterfeited, with all his
ornaments and attires. In his hand he held a parchment, called T., the
which next unto the Bible is our greatest treasure, which ought to be
delivered to the censure of the world. At the end of this book
standeth this following Elogium:

Granum pectori Jesu insitum. [7] ..."

I noticed some differences between the English text and the original
in German so I will take a look at the original copy, and get back to
you.

Interesting. The 'parchment' or scroll reminds me of the scroll with
numbers in the Naometria, and there is also a scroll in the picture of
Studion with numbers on it.

Thanks
Sid
2008-04-11 09:09:15 UTC
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Here is one example in German:

"In seiner Hand hielt er ein Pergamentbüchlein mit goldenen
Buchstaben, und der Bezeichnung "T", welches nächst der Bibel der
höchste Schatz der Bruderschaft ist, der aber der profanen Welt nicht
so ohne weiteres eröffnet werden dürfe."

In his hand, he was holding a pergament book (the word büchlein =
small book or booklet) with golden letters and the letter "T", which
next to the Bible is greatest treasure of the Brotherhood, which must
not be opened to the profane world.

I'll check this with the original text.
Sid
2008-04-11 09:22:02 UTC
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[8] This Epitath (Elogium) translates to:

" C. Ros. C., descended from a noble and illustrious R.C. family of
Germany, a man admitted by the unwearied labors of his lifetime to the
heavenly and human mysteries or secrets by divine revelations in
subtlest mental images, after he had preserved his (which he had
collected on the Arabian and African journeys) more than royal and
imperial Treasure, not yet appropriate to his time, to be saved for
the future and moreover had trained heirs most united to the beliefs
of his Arts as also his name, had built a small world corresponding to
that large one in all movements and this extracted in the end from a
compendium of things past, present and future, older by a centenary,
not by banishing any disease (which he never himself had experienced
in body, he was never allowing [it] to infest others) but by summoning
the spirit of God, a most esteemed Father, most pleasant Brother, most
faithful Teacher, most pure friend, he returned to God the most
faithful Creator an illuminated soul (amidst the embraces and last
kisses of the Brothers), he has been concealed by his own friends for
one hundred twenty years."
f***@yahoo.co.uk
2008-04-11 12:20:45 UTC
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Thanks Sid. My version is a very detailed translation from different
originals, and is more occupied with conserving as much meaning as
possible, then giving any flow to the story.
Al
Post by Sid
Post by f***@yahoo.co.uk
Hehe. Of course. Anything one can use ;)
But I've been looking for the reference to book T in fama. I cant find
it. Could you remind me?
Thanks,
Al
Hi Al, et al
"Now, as we had not yet seen the dead body of our careful and wise
Father, we therefore removed the altar aside; there we lifted up a
strong plate of brass, and found a fair and worthy body, whole and
unconsumed, as the same is here lively counterfeited, with all his
ornaments and attires. In his hand he held a parchment, called T., the
which next unto the Bible is our greatest treasure, which ought to be
delivered to the censure of the world. At the end of this book
standeth this following Elogium:" (below)
"...Round about the first circle or brim stood,
Jesus mihi omnia [2]
In the middle were four figures, inclosed in circles, whose
circumscription was,
1. Nequaquam Vacuum [3]
2. Legis Jugum [4]
3. Libertas Evangelii [5]
4. Dei Gloria Intacta [6]
This is all clear and bright, as also the seventh side and the two
heptagons. So we kneeled down together, and gave thanks to the sole
wise, sole mighty and sole eternal God, who hath taught us more than
all men's wits could have found out, praised be His holy name. This
vault we parted in three parts, the upper part or sieling, the wall or
side, the ground or floor. Of the upper part you shall understand no
more at this time, but that it was divided according to the seven
sides in the triangle, which was in the bright center; but what
therein is contained you (that are desirous of our society) shall, God
willing, behold the same with your own eyes. Every side or wall is
parted into ten squares, every one with their several figures and
sentences, as they are truly shown and set forth concentratum here in
our book. The bottom again is parted in the triangle, but because
therein is described the power and the rule of the Inferior Governors,
we leave to manifest the same, for fear of the abuse by the evil and
ungodly world. But those that are provided and stored with the
Heavenly Antidote, do without fear or hurt, tread on and bruise the
head of the old and evil serpent, which this our age is well fitted
for. Every side or wall had a door or chest, wherein there lay divers
things, especially all our books, which otherwise we had, besides the
Vocabulario of Theophrastus Paracelsus of Hohenheim, and these which
daily unfalsifieth we do participate. Herein also we found his
Itinerarium and Vita, whence this relation for the most part is taken.
In another chest were looking-glasses of divers virtues, as also in
another place were little bells, burning lamps, and chiefly wonderful
artificial songs--generally all was done to that end, that if it
should happen, after many hundred years the Fraternity should come to
nothing, they might by this only vault be restored again.
Now, as we had not yet seen the dead body of our careful and wise
Father, we therefore removed the altar aside; there we lifted up a
strong plate of brass, and found a fair and worthy body, whole and
unconsumed, as the same is here lively counterfeited, with all his
ornaments and attires. In his hand he held a parchment, called T., the
which next unto the Bible is our greatest treasure, which ought to be
delivered to the censure of the world. At the end of this book
Granum pectori Jesu insitum. [7] ..."
I noticed some differences between the English text and the original
in German so I will take a look at the original copy, and get back to
you.
Interesting. The 'parchment' or scroll reminds me of the scroll with
numbers in the Naometria, and there is also a scroll in the picture of
Studion with numbers on it.
Thanks
Sid
2008-04-11 17:48:33 UTC
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Post by f***@yahoo.co.uk
Thanks Sid. My version is a very detailed translation from different
originals, and is more occupied with conserving as much meaning as
possible, then giving any flow to the story.
Al
Pleasure Al,

When compared with the original 2 versions (both from 1614) in the old
German, you will find that unfortunately there are many mistakes in
the versions in English and this includes the oldes original version
in English. To make matters worse, even some of the modern versions in
German are not that good.

Thankfully all 3 texts (Fama,Confessio & Chymical Wedding) have been
published in the original German with the exact text from each of the
original texts. Carlos Gilly did a good job with the Fama, but I don't
know if there is an English version.

Even back then different groups/people put their own slant to the
texts when translating them. A good example is with the word 'Aurora'
i.e., it is not in the original text. For the most part 'the story'
has been passed on, which is perhaps ok for most readers.

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